Comments on: Sullivan vs. Harris http://www.pagliere.net/alan/blog/2007/11/06/sullivan-vs-harris/ Don't overthink it Thu, 20 Nov 2008 21:05:04 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.1 By: Mark F. http://www.pagliere.net/alan/blog/2007/11/06/sullivan-vs-harris/#comment-8 Mark F. Thu, 08 Nov 2007 15:59:33 +0000 http://www.pagliere.net/alan/blog/2007/11/06/sullivan-vs-harris/#comment-8 I’m glad that Sullivan loves the Church and the various wise popes, but he is still going to Hell, right along with those who ate meat on Friday, etc. Imagine Sullivan, instead of being gay in an actively gay relationship, is a woman who is about to get an abortion, or better still, is a “devout practicing Catholic” woman who performs abortions every day. She could still say all the same blather about how she deeply believes that the Catholic history, rituals, and spirituality “found her” and what these things have always meant and still mean to her, but so what? The Church still says she is going to Hell, even if some believers are kind to her, etc. Being actively gay (or performing abortions for a living) but clinging to the Church does not make one a “moderate” Catholic—it makes one a hypocrite. Follow the Church and become a married hetro, stop performing abortions, or quit the Church. Harris is correct. Religious belief is based on mistaken perceptions. One can believe that the Earth is flat, but when he makes a law that ships can’t sail more than a mile from the coast and outlaws air travel, it’s time to tell him he is wrong and to remove him from any position of responsibility. When one says that Jesus is returning to Earth within the next 25 years to preside over the end of days, he has forfeited the right to make environmental decisions, financial decisions, education decisions, etc. for society in general. When a US President believes that Jesus told him to attack Iraq, he needs to be told that he is wrong and that he has forfeited the right to be President. Or at a minimum, we should demand some proof. If Jesus is so determined to attack Iraq, He can tell us himself, or write it on golden plates and have the Angel Moroni deliver them to Mit Romney or some other Mormon running for President, or direct a talking burning bush to announce it live on Fox News. And to be safe, we should probably have Yahweh and Allah sign off on the attack plans. The nutshell of Harris’ argument is summed up in his question to deluded believers: “What proof would make you stop believing in God?” Sullivan, and other believers always answer: “Nothing could do that.” But if you reverse the question and ask, “What would make you the atheist believe in God?” we can give you answers all day. How about, if God appeared to us and told us he exists. Or any number of experiments. Each time the Pope prays for something, God grants it. Atheists are always ready for some proof. True believers can’t be bothered with facts. That is fine, as far as it goes. But forgive me if I reject leaders who can’t be bothered with facts. There is hope however. I spent most of my life as a true believer, but I wised up. If I can do it, others can as well. I’m glad that Sullivan loves the Church and the various wise popes, but he is still going to Hell, right along with those who ate meat on Friday, etc. Imagine Sullivan, instead of being gay in an actively gay relationship, is a woman who is about to get an abortion, or better still, is a “devout practicing Catholic” woman who performs abortions every day. She could still say all the same blather about how she deeply believes that the Catholic history, rituals, and spirituality “found her” and what these things have always meant and still mean to her, but so what? The Church still says she is going to Hell, even if some believers are kind to her, etc. Being actively gay (or performing abortions for a living) but clinging to the Church does not make one a “moderate” Catholic—it makes one a hypocrite. Follow the Church and become a married hetro, stop performing abortions, or quit the Church.

Harris is correct. Religious belief is based on mistaken perceptions. One can believe that the Earth is flat, but when he makes a law that ships can’t sail more than a mile from the coast and outlaws air travel, it’s time to tell him he is wrong and to remove him from any position of responsibility. When one says that Jesus is returning to Earth within the next 25 years to preside over the end of days, he has forfeited the right to make environmental decisions, financial decisions, education decisions, etc. for society in general. When a US President believes that Jesus told him to attack Iraq, he needs to be told that he is wrong and that he has forfeited the right to be President. Or at a minimum, we should demand some proof. If Jesus is so determined to attack Iraq, He can tell us himself, or write it on golden plates and have the Angel Moroni deliver them to Mit Romney or some other Mormon running for President, or direct a talking burning bush to announce it live on Fox News. And to be safe, we should probably have Yahweh and Allah sign off on the attack plans.

The nutshell of Harris’ argument is summed up in his question to deluded believers: “What proof would make you stop believing in God?” Sullivan, and other believers always answer: “Nothing could do that.” But if you reverse the question and ask, “What would make you the atheist believe in God?” we can give you answers all day. How about, if God appeared to us and told us he exists. Or any number of experiments. Each time the Pope prays for something, God grants it. Atheists are always ready for some proof. True believers can’t be bothered with facts. That is fine, as far as it goes. But forgive me if I reject leaders who can’t be bothered with facts.

There is hope however. I spent most of my life as a true believer, but I wised up. If I can do it, others can as well.

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